First Do No Harm: Amanda’s Story

American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network ..cannot endorse the proposed guidelines in any way

Painkiller crackdown sparks industry blow back

http://thehill.com/regulation/healthcare/257204-painkiller-crackdown-sparks-industry-blowback

Healthcare industry groups are launching a preemptive strike against soon-to-drop federal guidelines meant to tamp down on the prescription of powerful painkillers.
 
The forthcoming guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are meant to combat the abuse of drugs like Hyrdocodone, Oxycontin and Percocet, which many medical experts believe are dangerously overprescribed.
 
Prescriptions for the drugs, known as opioids, increased by 300 percent from 1999 to 2013, according to the CDC, which cites statistics showing 16,000 people died from overdoses during that time.
As currently drafted, the guidelines recommend physicians use opioids as a last resort after non-pharmacologic therapies like exercise and a lower level pain reliever like Ibuprofen have been tried, according to a copy obtained by The Hill. They do not, however, pertain to treatments for end-of-life care.
 
But the American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network (ACS CAN) is pushing back against the effort, contending that the guidelines were developed with insufficient evidence and questioning the methodology and the transparency of the entire process.
 
“Our concerns are so serious that we cannot endorse the proposed guidelines in any way and suggest suspending the process until the methodological flaws are corrected and more evidence is available to support prescribing recommendations,” ACS CAN’s President Christopher Hansen wrote in a letter to the CDC earlier this month after the group was asked to weigh in.
 
Mark Fleury, policy development principal on emerging sciences for the group, said the guidelines might ultimately make it more difficult for people, like cancer patients who have legitimate pain, to get the opioids they need.  He said insurance companies will likely use the guidelines to set policies on when opioids will and won’t be covered.
 
He said they could even be used in litigation. If a patient, for example, sues a healthcare provider, the court might turn to the guidelines as the defacto expectation for treatment.
 
Though Fleury said he’d love to see doctors prescribe painkillers that aren’t as addictive or harmful as opioids to address chronic pain, they just don’t exist.
 
“This is what we have,” he said.
 
Other groups, like the American Academy of Pain Management, are raising concerns about conflicts of interest among the experts CDC used to draft the guidelines.
 
Bob Twillman, the group’s executive director, said some of CDC’s experts are members of Physicians for Responsible Opioid Prescribing (PROP), a group that advocates for more cautious opioid use.
 
“I don’t mind if people against opioids help draft the guidelines, but there needs to be a balanced representation of those against them and those that use them on a daily basis to treat patients,” he said. “They are dangerous, but it’s also true that there are many people who benefit from them and couldn’t live their lives if they didn’t have them, including many people with cancer.”
 
PROP, however, said its board members were asked to be part of the expert panel because they are experts in opioid use.
 
“The story here is how the opioid lobby is using the Cancer Action Network to discredit a public health effort to limit opioid prescribing,” Dr. Andrew Kolodny, the group’s executive director said.
 
The goal behind the guidelines is to recommend a more cautious approach to prescribing opioids, he said, not to try and take opioids away from the 10 to 12 million people who are taking them for chronic pain.
 
“There’s a lot of fear mongering that’s making these people panic and think that CDC wants to take opioids away from them and that’s not at all true,” he said.
 
In a statement to The Hill, CDC Spokeswoman Courtney Lenard said the core expert group members and peer reviewers were asked to disclose any circumstances that could represent a potential conflict of interest, meaning any interest that may affect, or may reasonably be perceived to affect, the expert’s objectivity and independence.
 
“Peer Reviewers disclosed no financial interests or other promotional relationships with the manufacturers of commercial products, suppliers of commercial services, or commercial supporters,” she said, adding that those who did report interests related to intellectual property, public statements and positions were “carefully” reviewed by the CDC’s guideline development staff.
 
Other pain experts said the guidelines are good, but only for treating patients who have never been prescribed opioids before.
 
“I don’t think a single policy will adequately deal with people currently taking opioids and those newly put on opioids,” Dr. Daniel Clauw, a professor of anesthesiology at the University of Michigan Medical School, said “They’re good guidelines for the latter.”
 
From a public health standpoint, Clauw said the federal government needs to do something, but it should be careful in taking a one-size-fits-all approach.
 
“I think the rules are really spot on for new opioid starts, but I think we need a different set or rules for people already on opioids,” he said.
 
The CDC said the guidelines are currently in development and are not intended to be use by clinicians until reviews are complete and the guidelines are released publicly. The agency said the final report will be published in CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report in early 2016.
 
“Prescription drug abuse and overdose is a serious public health issue and improving the way opioids are prescribed through clinical practice guidelines can ensure patients have access to safer, more effective chronic pain treatment while reducing the number of people who misuse, abuse or overdose,” Lenard said.

FTC lays out new antitrust landscape for medical boards

FTC lays out new antitrust landscape for medical boards

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20151014/NEWS/151019958

Seeking to address questions raised by a recent U.S. Supreme Court decision, the Federal Trade Commission issued guidance Wednesday explaining how boards can regulate their own professions without violating antitrust law.

The guidance describes what regulatory boards must do in order to avoid violating antitrust laws. It follows a Supreme Court ruling earlier this year in which the justices ruled that state licensing boards made up of active members of the professions they regulate, such as practicing doctors, are not immune from antitrust laws unless they are actively supervised by the state.

The ruling raised serious questions because it’s common for state regulatory boards to consist of members of the profession they regulate. The new FTC document describes what exactly active supervision by the state means, who constitutes an active member of a profession and what it means for active members of a profession to control such a board.

“In the wake of the Supreme Court’s decision, we received requests for advice from state officials and others as to what constitutes antitrust compliance for state boards responsible for regulating occupations,” according to a description written by Debbie Feinstein and Geoffrey Green with the agency’s Bureau of Competition.

In North Carolina Board of Dental Examiners v. Federal Trade Commission, the court held 6-3 that it was illegal for the board, composed mostly of practicing dentists, to tell nondentists working in mall kiosks to stop offering teeth-whitening services. The dental board in that case tried to claim it wasn’t subject to federal antitrust laws because it was a state agency. The Supreme Court said that the board would have had to show it was actively supervised by the state in order to claim such immunity from antitrust law.

The FTC now says it considers a board member to be an active member of the profession if that person is licensed by the board or provides any service subject to the board’s authority. That means, for example, that an orthodontist on a dental board would still be considered an active market participant—even when deciding cases regarding procedures performed only by dentists—because that orthodontist is licensed and regulated by the board.

Also, a board member who temporarily stops working while he or she is serving on the board is still considered an active market participant.

And active market participants on a board may be considered to control it even if they don’t constitute a numerical majority of members.

For example, if a board can’t make decisions without at least one vote from an active participant member, then the active participant members are considered to control the board. Or if the nonpracticing members of a board routinely defer to the preferences of the practicing members, then the practicing members are considered to control the board.

The FTC also weighs in on what is meant by the term “active supervision” of professional boards.

In the Supreme Court’s majority opinion in North Carolina Board of Dental Examiners, Justice Anthony Kennedy didn’t provide much explanation. He wrote that active supervision requires the state supervisor to review the substance of board decisions and have the power to veto or change the decisions to make sure they’re in line with state policy. In addition, the supervisor may not be an active market participant, he said.

The FTC says it will consider whether the supervisor has discovered the relevant facts, collected data, conducted public hearings, received public comment, investigated market conditions, conducted studies and reviewed evidence. The commission will also consider whether the supervisor has issued a written decision on the board’s action.

The guidance notes that a state can’t claim that it’s actively supervising a board just because a state official is monitoring it. That official also must be able to veto a board’s actions.

Active supervision also requires more than just advice from a state attorney general or other state official to the board. Nor would it be sufficient if the agency tasked with approving or vetoing a board’s recommendations, in practice, rubber-stamps all the board’s decisions without a thorough review.

Richard Feinstein, a former director of the FTC’s Bureau of Competition, said Wednesday he expects that if states make changes in response to the ruling and guidance, they’d be more likely to change how they supervise such boards rather than change the makeup of the boards.

“As a practical matter, it’s likely to be a simpler process and perhaps a quicker process to change the way in which a board is supervised rather than how it’s constituted,” said Feinstein, now a partner at Boies, Schiller and Flexner in Washington, D.C. He said focusing on supervision might be more straightforward than looking at makeup, especially since the guidance says boards don’t necessarily need a majority of active participants as members to be considered controlled by those members.

He said, overall, the guidance successfully provides more clarity to state boards, which will likely find it very helpful as they decide how to respond to the Supreme Court ruling.

Robert Leibenluft, a former head of the healthcare division within the FTC’s Bureau of Competition, also said the guidance will be useful to boards. He called the document unusual in that the FTC usually tries to avoid issuing such guidance, preferring to examine situations on a case-by-case basis.

“Whether that’s ultimately upheld by the courts is another question, but I think it’s useful to find out where the FTC is coming down on these things,” said Leibenluft, now a partner at Hogan Lovells in Washington, D.C.

The guidance may play a key role in the courts in the future, said Robert Fellmeth, a law professor at the University of San Diego and executive director at the Center for Public Interest Law. Fellmeth, who’s been a critic of the FTC, said he doubts states or the boards will make changes if legal consequences are absent. He said the vast majority of boards would not now meet the active supervision requirements.

“They will keep doing it until you have four or five or six major treble damages and the credit ruination of board members, then you’ll see them act,” Fellmeth said.

He said the guidelines are nonetheless “important because they will definitely influence the courts when cases are filed.”

But is anyone in charge listening ?

pills

Senators say anti-pill mill law has seen patients’ pain go untreated

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/192845-senators-say-anti-pill-mill-law-has-seen-patients-pain-go-untreated

Members of the Senate Health Policy Committee discussed a 2011 law designed to crack down on illicit painkiller prescriptions through “pill mills,” which Chairman Aaron Bean said has sent “the pendulum from one direction to the other.”

The law, HB 7095, was spearheaded by a newly elected Attorney General Pam Bondi and then-Sen. Mike Fasano in the midst of a widespread painkiller abuse epidemic which earned Florida the title of “pill mill capital of the U.S.”

A pair of experts corroborated accounts senators said they have heard from constituents that the crackdown, however, has prevented suffering patients from receiving legitimate care.

Division Director of Medical Quality Assurance Lucy Gee of the state’s health department told the panel that back in 2010, Florida was home to 921 pain management clinics and 90 of the nation’s top 100 purchasers of OxyCodone, a powerful, widely abused opiate. Orders from the state accounted for nearly 89 percent of the nation’s purchases.

Since then, however, state-level legislative and enforcement moves have dropped those excessive numbers precipitously, leading to a 63 percent drop in Floridians “doctor shopping” for painkillers and a 65 percent drop in OxyCodone-driven deaths, according to Gee.

In other words, “it’s working.” Perhaps a little too well.

“The system for delivering needed medications to Florida’s patients has eroded by a lack of confidence and trust” in the wake of the 2011 reforms, said Gee.

Towards that end, Gee said the DOH is working with the Florida Board of Pharmacy – a state board of pharmaceutical industry and drug dispensary stakeholders and consumers – to eliminate fear and confusion among pharmacists, who dread losing their license and livelihood over new drug limits and regulations.

Gee suggested the board’s rules be tweaked to move the focus away from “red flags” towards a renewed presumption in favor of filling prescriptions, along with a comprehensive education program for pharmacists and wholesalers alike.

Michael Jackson, CEO of the Florida Pharmacy Association, testified that the 2011 bill had “things did get a little out of balance,” creating a “fear factor” among pharmacists.

During the hearing committee member Sen. Don Gaetz wondered aloud to Gee whether an increase in street drug use could be attributed to the state crackdown. He also suggested a more holistic approach to the problem, including considering medical marijuana as an alternative to prescriptions painkillers.

“I’m not trying to sell anything here, I’m just trying to suggest that it may be necessary in both discussing what’s appropriate for dealing with pain management… to know what the Department of Health thinks about the best ways to deal with pain and noxious symptom management,” said Gaetz.

Gee replied that her discussions with the board were limited to painkillers.

“Most respectfully,” said Gaetz, “I would suggest that your discussions ought to be how to ensure that patients who have chronic pain receive the best treatment.”

More bureaucrats practicing medicine without a license ?

Gov. Maggie Hassan and Attorney General Joseph Foster went behind closed doors last week with state medical officials to present a draft of tough rules for doctors who prescribe opioids, the New Hampshire Union Leader has learned.
Hassan has asked the Board of Medicine to use emergency powers to adopt the rules, which would short-circuit the normal public input process used when state agencies adopt rules. Hassan’s office provided a copy of the rules, which have not been made public, to the Union Leader when requested.
The New Hampshire Medical Society said dozens of physicians have asked that the process be slowed down and proceed through the normal process.

“This is a very serious and complex problem, and it will affect patients,” said Janet Monahan, executive vice president of the 2,200-member Medical Society. “Not every patient that receives an opioid is an addict.”
Monahan said the opioid task force, which is part of the Governor’s Commission for Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention, Treatment and Recovery, opposes the emergency implementation.

“We’re not against the rules,” Monahan said, “but let’s have an open process and not rush it.”
Hassan’s spokesman said the emergency rules are only valid for six months, which gives time for the formal adoption to proceed.

“We’re in the middle of a crisis,” said Hassan spokesman William Hinkle. “This is about saving lives. This is a crisis situation.”
The draft rules take up 12 pages. A copy is available by clicking here.

• They require any doctor or nurse practitioner who prescribes opioids to have continuing medical education.

• Any opioid prescription would have to follow a documented evaluation that would include a patient’s pain intensity, previous pain treatments, history of addiction, family history and social assessments.
• Opioids could only be prescribed when other pain-management efforts have not worked and the benefits outweigh the risks. Supplies would be limited to five days for episodic patients and fentanyl could not be supplied to non-cancer patients.
• A prescriber must use the state-controlled drug database to review a patient’s drug history before writing a prescription. Prescriptions for chronic pain could only be written in multiples of a seven-day supply.
• A doctor must discuss the risks with his or her patient.

• Patients at high risk for addiction must sign a written agreement that includes permission for blood or urine tests, reasons for discontinuation and an agreement not to abuse alcohol or other drugs while on the medication.
Hinkle said the draft rules are a starting point, and his office is accepting input from physicians and other interested parties.

He said once the rules are presented to the board in public, the board can adopt them under emergency provisions.
“The timeline hasn’t been finalized,” he said.

Hinkle would not confirm that a meeting with the Board of Medicine is scheduled for Oct. 28. According to the Board’s website, its next regular meeting is Nov. 4.
Earlier Thursday, questions arose about how much contact Hassan’s drug czar, Jack Wozmak, has had with the N.H. Medical Society and other physicians.

New Hampshire Medical Society President Dr. Lukas Kolm said Wozmak has met with individual members, but not the society’s leadership group as a whole.
“To bring everybody together, that is what I have not seen,” said Kolm, an emergency room physician in Dover. He added that he doesn’t want the process driven by politics.

Hinkle responded by saying that the medical community has given some resistance to the rules.
Republican Party Chairman Jennifer Horn faulted Hassan for not working more closely with doctor groups and said it’s another sign of Hassan’s mismanagement and incompetence when it comes to dealing with the opioid epidemic.
“These doctors are on the front lines of combating New Hampshire’s heroin epidemic, and they deserve the full support of the governor’s office,” Horn said.

mhayward@unionleader.com

alcohol is still the largest category — it’s still the fastest growing category

Prescription overdose deaths fall in Oklahoma

what do you think the odds are that no one ever uses drugs to commit suicide ? According to all/nearly all stats… no one ever uses drugs to commit suicide… those that die of a drug overdose… does it accidentally…

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/health/prescription-overdose-deaths-fall-in-oklahoma/article_837622d4-3bd4-5d74-894e-61f0662e4769.html?mode=story

Oklahoma saw the number of residents dying from unintentional overdoses drop last year, and that’s prompting cautious optimism that efforts to curb abuse could be taking hold in a state plagued by prescription drug abuse.

“There are more prescription drug overdose deaths each year in Oklahoma than overdose deaths from alcohol and all illegal drugs combined,” Gov. Mary Fallin said in a statement, noting the trend. “Moving forward, we need to continue to push treatment and prevention programs wherever we can to help fight this dangerous public health problem.”

In 2014, 510 Oklahomans died from unintentional prescription drug overdoses, preliminary data from the state Health Department shows.

That’s a 5 percent decrease from 2013, when Oklahoma lost 538 residents to overdose. In 2014, because of the decrease, Oklahoma saw its lowest unintentional prescription drug overdose death rate, 13.2 deaths per 100,000 people, since 2007.

During the past few years, the state has seen some of the highest rates in the nation of painkiller abuse and deaths. In 2012, Oklahoma tied Kentucky for the third highest rate of painkillers prescribed, with a rate of 128 painkiller prescriptions per 100 people.

Darrell Weaver, director of the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs, said although 2014 saw only a 5 percent decrease in deaths, it’s still a decrease.

“I watched, over the last 10 years, those drug overdose deaths increase every year,” Weaver said. “Sometimes, I felt like ‘Oh my gosh — where’s the ceiling here?’ And anytime we can see the trend start the other way, I think that’s a very positive sign. Do we need more? We sure do.”

During the past several years, officials have lauded the state’s prescription drug monitoring program as a key resource in combating drug abuse.

The system tracks prescriptions filled for schedule II, III, IV and V controlled substances, which includes powerful painkillers such as oxycodone and hydrocodone.

In November, state law will require that physicians regularly check the system when prescribing these drugs.

Gov. Fallin, in making her remarks, highlighted that change, noting she worked hard to support that law’s aim to cut down on “doctor shopping” and the over-prescribing of potentially dangerous prescription narcotics.

“It is my hope it will help to reduce prescription overdose deaths and prescription drug abuse in general,” she said.

Research continues to show that Oklahoma’s efforts to beef up that monitoring program are in line with best practices for combating prescription drug abuse.

This past week, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released a report that showed information from state prescription drug monitoring programs can be used to detect and measure prescribing patterns that suggest abuse and misuse of controlled substances.

Researchers studied data from eight state monitoring programs and found prescribing rates varied widely by state.

Additionally, they found that a small minority of prescribers are responsible for most opioid prescriptions, and people who receive opioid prescriptions often also receive benzodiazepine prescriptions, such as Xanax, despite the risk for adverse drug interactions.

Drug overdose is the leading cause of injury and death in the United States, in large part because of abuse and misuse of prescribing opioid painkillers, sedatives, tranquilizers and stimulants, according to the CDC.

“Every day, 44 people die in American communities from an overdose of prescription opioids and many more become addicted,” Dr. Tom Frieden, CDC director, said in a news release. “States are on the front line of witnessing these overdose deaths. This research can help inform their prescription overdose prevention efforts and save lives.”

After states crack down on prescription drug abuse, they often see a spike in heroin use.

People who are addicted to opiate painkillers, such as oxycodone, are 40 times more likely to be addicted to heroin, CDC data shows.

In Oklahoma, the number of heroin deaths increased tenfold from three deaths in 2007 to 29 in 2012, health department data shows.

However, that increase could be because, in previous years, heroin deaths might have been underestimated and misclassified as morphine deaths.

Once in a person’s body, heroin metabolizes completely into morphine, so it is possible deaths could be misclassified, especially if there is no evidence of heroin use at the scene, and the heroin has already completely metabolized to morphine by the time the decedent’s lab samples are taken, according to the health department.

Weaver said his agency’s undercover drug agents haven’t yet seen an uptick in heroin activity.

“We’re watching that closely because I really felt the more we clamped down on some of these prescription opiates, the gloom would squeeze out on heroin, but we’re monitoring that closely,” Weaver said.

Meanwhile, Terri White, the state’s mental health commissioner, said the number of people seeking treatment for heroin and opiate abuse has increased along with overall numbers of people seeking treatment.

In the past year, 24 percent of residents who sought treatment from the publicly funded substance abuse treatment system sought care for opiate or heroin abuse.

Ten years ago, only 10 percent of people using the state’s system sought care for these drugs.

“Even though it’s not our largest category — alcohol is still the largest category — it’s still the fastest growing category, which is alarming, and why all of these efforts around prevention, treatment and changing prescribing practices are all critical,” White said.

It’s hard to draw conclusions from treatment data because of several factors that are involved in a person seeking treatment, White said.

“I can’t interpret from that if there are more people using heroin and switching from opioids or heroin,” White said.

Additionally, to combat prescription drug overdose, officials have pushed for more law enforcement agencies to carry naloxone, a prescription drug that can, if used early enough, reverse the effects of prescription opioid and heroin overdose.

Since 2014, Tulsa-area law enforcement officers have used naloxone on 23 people who survived after they were thought to be overdosing.

In July, Oklahoma City police announced they would train their officers to start carrying naloxone, and Midwest City police recently announced they would soon begin carrying the drug, as well.

White said these efforts, along with educating physicians on proper prescribing practices, are important actions the state has taken, and should continue to take, to combat abuse.

“This is a critical issue, and I think we should be hopeful about the decrease,” White said, “but we have to be committed to continuing all of the efforts to ensure it continues on a downward trend quickly because we’re talking about Oklahoman lives.”

Prescriber … LIE OF THE WEEK !

hypocracy

I got a email from a friend of mine that lives in one of the northern states and is a “Florida snow bird” 3-5 months a year..  and has done the same cycle for the last 10 + yrs.  This is a 70 something post-polio gentleman.  He has been seeing the same northern pain doc during the spring/summer months and a FL pain doc for the “snow bird months”…  The FL doc has been seeing him and writing him his pain meds for the past 5 yrs.

This FL pain doc told this snow bird that there was a new law in FL that requires all pain docs to only see/treat FL residents.

My suggestion to my friend was the same as to anyone that gets that infamous phrase “that’s a new law”… just get the person telling you that to show you a copy of the law and/or the statue number so that you can look it up on the web… If they can’t/won’t do either… the LAW doesn’t exist..

This particular gentleman, has owned his condo for some twenty years and rents it out during the “hot summer/spring season” and him and his wife use it during the winter months..  So they pay local property tax, have a local land line and a local electric bill.  I suggested to my friend that he take his US Passport, copies of those bills and go to the local driver’s license bureau and get a FL resident ID… which looks like a driver’s license but it clearly marked it is for ID use only.

He will appear to be a FL resident…

Here is what my friend found out from the doc’s office staff…. …..it seems the good doctor was doing a bit of bullshitting about the new law.  No new law, just his way of limiting his patients to residents.  His receptionist finally came clean about the dirty Doctor. 

 

Apparently this pain doc revoked his Hippocratic Oath and took the Hypocritical Oath ?

As a society… subjective/mental health diseases seems to be VERY LOW on fund raising

List of health-related charity fundraisers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_health-related_charity_fundraisers

While this list is not complete, it is pretty lengthy and while there are some international listing.. in the good old USA.. the total fund raisers listed for subjective and/or mental health diseases … appears to be ZERO

Is this from the puritanical thread that remains in our societal fabric .. that those with subjective/mental health issues are WEAK ?

 

Doctor claims TOO MANY ESI’s being done !

 

Another example of horror stories don’t made good policy but they do make policy

Lawmakers push ban on herbal Viagra after Odom’s overdose

Lawmakers push ban on herbal Viagra after Odom’s overdose

There  has been 5-6 high school football players died this football season from head trauma… Where is all the politicians/bureaucrats concerned about the deaths and loss of their future of these young athletes… I guess that a major professional athlete voluntarily taking – or over taking – unproved, untested product is more important to set the bureaucratic wheels in motion. Apparently some lives are more important to bureaucrats than others..

http://nypost.com/2015/10/18/lawmakers-push-ban-on-herbal-viagra-after-odoms-overdose/

ALBANY — Lamar Odom’s near-deadly binge on drugs, hookers and herbal sex supplements has moved two state lawmakers to take a hard look at stopping so-called herbal Viagra.

“This incident raises serious concerns about FDA enforcement of prescription drugs,” said state Sen. Jeff Klein (D-Bronx).

Klein was furious to discover the FDA knew Reload and other similar herbal supplements contained the same prescription-only ingredient that’s in Viagra but did nothing to remove it from store shelves. The products — with names like Weekend Warrior and Hard Wang — can be found in Bronx bodegas, as well as Nevada brothels.

The FDA issued warnings about the supplements two years ago, but regulators have had trouble removing them from the market.

They’re largely sold by fly-by-night companies that simply shut down their Web sites and disappear when confronted, only to later repackage the products with new names and Web sites.

“A lot of these products are made with little or no oversight in foreign countries,” said Sen. Jose Peralta (D-Queens). “We don’t know what manufacturing standards are in many of these places.”