Killer refuses to wave HIPPA rights, foiling victim’s lawsuit in wrongful-death case involving deadly L.I. pharmacy shooting
From the article:
Patient privacy laws have stymied a lawsuit against a doctor who supplied prescription painkillers to drug addicts David Laffer and Melinda Brady. The widow of a man killed in the 2011 shooting wanted their medical records to prove the doctor recklessly provided them excessive amounts of painkillers. But Laffer and Brady have not agreed to waive confidentiality rights guaranteed under HIPPA.
Filed under: General Problems
My daughter has been prescribed an opioid for severe abdominal during her period . Because of this severe pain she is under doctor’s orders to only give herself a period three times a year. But she she does the pain is so severe for a day and a half she is bedridden with pain. She has had prescription of about 15 pill to last her throughout the year. Usd just for those times when she give herself a period. NOT HER GYM IS TELLING HER SHE CAN NOT GIVE THAT TO HER ANY LONGER. The stress and agony she now faces at the though of her next period is horrible!!! THIS NOT DOES MAKE ANY SENSE! This doctor is a wimp. She actually told my daughter that she can not risk being red flagged by the FDA!!!! THERE HAS GOT TO BE SOME PROVISION IN THE LAW MADE FOR PEOPLE LIKE MY DAUGHTER. BECAUSE THIS IS WRONG!
Oops correction…..my one line should read…make them all legal and let the patient make informed consent for use for his chronic pain and the laws of Darwin sort out the really bad ones……….seems my tablet wouldnt let me edit on this site once it was posted
If you look up the history of the Harrison drug act, it was the prejudices of time that caused opium, cocaine and marijuiana to become controlled. I agree with of you THE WAR ON DRUGS COMPLETE FAILURE. I have friends who kids are street junkies…I really empathize with them, I know I piss them off wirh my views, but if it were all legal crime would drop, look at alcohol prohibition history. Cartels would have no business. If doctors could treat addicts in the office, addicts could be safely weaned off instead of ‘cold turkey’ in jails or rehabs.CVS just stopped selling a perfectly legal product cigarettes, will they give up their liquor licenses and stop selling another legal product alcohol? Doubt it. Comment was made..sellerof alcohol to alcolholic isnt held accountable if an accident yet if the drunk driver left a bar…the bar and servers are held accountable by the State ABC
andcourts in any lawsuits. Yet we know alcohol and cigarettes cause far more health issues and deaths than pain meds and yet pain meds are the bad guy and anyone who uses them are a pariah. Make them all legal and let the lwtient make the I formed consent and the laws of Darwin sort out the bad ones. As was stated earlier, anyone can become hooked on anything and mst common reason is due to a traumatic event and they want to numb the emotional pain, but we are talking anout a riny amount of the population.maybe the real solution is better mental health care
Coonhound, I liked your response about what I said. You make a good point about never going too far to protect peoples rights. The point is that people had privacy before HIPPA. HIPPA has simply taken it too far to the point that it defies common sense. I cannot give a wife a print out of her husbands medical expenses. An elderly person that has difficulty walking cannot get a print out of medical expenses unless that pereson has someone else with power of attorney come and sign for it. A mother cannot pick up a medical print out of her kids medical expenses. We have to mail it to them. I could continue telling you other things that HIPPA does. We have to shred all the paper in the pharmacy every day because of fear that someone will go through the trash and learn something about a patient. This might be good in Hollywood where reporters dig through the garbage for stuff on celebrities, but it is a total waste of our time.
{I guess I tend not to favor intrusive, repressive government, excessive litigation, and our most recent proclivities towards fascism and corporatist government rather than democracy. I like civil rights and civil liberties and tend to favor personal responsibility, common sense, and recognizing the total inability to legislate morality upon free men. So NO, I don’t think one can ever go too far to protect ones rights. http://www.fascismusa.com/}
Talk about government intrusion…pharmacy is one of the most regulated professions on earth. Like you, I don’t like government intrusion. You would not believe the crap we have to do to comply with all the laws both state and federal. And, you wonder why it takes so long for us to fill a prescription. You have no idea the steps we have to take to just fill a prescription. Some of the drugs we stock we have to account for every single tablet and keep a log book showing each time we dispensed the drug. On any controlled substance prescription, we have to check the patients name, get their birthday, get their address, get their phone number, find the physcian in a database, get his NPI number, get his DEA number and make sure the address in the database matches the address on the prescription. If the doc phones the prescription, we have to write all that information on the prescription. All this is a DEA requirement. Some drugs, we are suppose to phone the physician to make sure there is a patient/doctor relationship before we can fill the prescription. Does that sound nutty? The doc wrote the person a rx, so the patient must have seen the doc and they know each other. Nutty? Yes, but it is a DEA requirement. So, I don’t like FASCIST government forcing me to do all this useless crap.
{Before going too far afield, I must state that while statistics can be manipulated and interpreted in many ways, many studies have been conducted comparing the rates of addiction throughout US history. Many well respected citizens agree that when comparing the country’s addiction rate pre Harrison Act, when citizens were allowed to purchase any medication, even cocaine and heroin, OTC they are comparable to today’s rates despite being described as of ‘epidemic’ proportions and even with all the billions spent to contain it with lawsuits, prisons, numerous state, local, and federal agencies, forced treatment, loss of liberties, corruption, etc, etc.}
I pretty much agree with you. I think there is a segment of the population that is going to abuse something and there will be this percentage of the population that will always be abusers no matter what the government does or all the government programs there are. I have often wondered if it would be better to just let everything be legal. This would stop the drug trafficking and the drug cartels. The DEA has totally failed on its job on the so called war on drugs. Looks like they have decided to concentrate on docs and pharmacies….that is easier for them.
{I could care less when where why or what kind of drug an addict uses or who he gets it from. What you are seeing is not the negative aspects of addiction at play in this tragedy but rather the effects of prohibition and the laws against addiction and ever more recently against even legitimate drug USE. [as in pain meds]. These measures of control do 100 x the damage as the actual drugs themselves. IMO doctors and pharmacists should work with the patient allowing HIM to make informed decisions in the best interests of his health be it a chronic illness, addiction, terminal cancer, on down to a stubbed toe. [Have a person sign a waiver when purchasing his drugs and let it go at that] Maybe my views are colored by living w/ 2 incurable autoimmune diseases for almost 15 yrs. I may tend to err on the side of quality of life and personal decisions. If not given final say in my healthcare treatment, my doctors are sent packing as I am the one who must live with the final choice(s).Blaming doctors for a patients addiction is ridiculous and only brings about further hurdles for legitimate patients.}
There are a lot of us pharmacists that are concerned that the DEA is going too far with their efforts to control pain meds and that it is causing problems and hurting the actual people that need these meds. People with severe chronic pain are having problems getting pain meds and beginning Oct 6 it is really going to get worse. The DEA is going to classify Hydrocodone products as narcotics and require a WRITTEN prescription from the doc….no phone calls…no faxes…no electronic prescriptions. It is the elderly and disabled that are going to suffer just to try and stop some of these addicts from getting drugs. The question is whether it will have any effect. I know that in my area Meth is a popular drug. For a long time, the suppliers were getting their pseudoephedrine from pharmacies. At first they could just buy it off the shelf, then they were required to get it from behind the counter and sign for it, and then my state made it prescription only. That pretty well cut of their source of ingredient. Did it slow the use of Meth. I don’t think so. My guess is that it is probably coming in from other states or maybe Mexico. It has not stopped the addiction. So, it is much like you said with prohibition. The DEA’s step to restrict the Hydrocodones will likely have the same effect on addicts. They will find another source than the docs and pharmacies. About the docs, there are a certain percentage that practice by writing prescriptions for addicts. This are the ones for which I have no sympathy and think they should have their medical liscense taken from them.
{As far as addicts go? I could care less if someone ruins their liver by ‘eating’ 50 Vicodin a day for years or drinking a quart of rum per day for years to me its no difference, just one less moron taking up space. Not a big fan of the blame game that goes on in this country now. Accept responsibility for your own actions, no doctor forced this man to return time and again to pick up his scripts no matter how ‘legit’ they were or not. At any point in time he could have gone to a methadone clinic or just quit using altogether (believe it or not it CAN be done, I’ve done it ,cold turkey off morphine), Not fun but the thought of a two week flu cannot ‘force’ a man into a decision to murder someone to get his ‘fix’. Somehow I resisted this temptation or going downtown to ‘cop heroin’. When I didn’t need it anymore I quit, novel idea that it is. When I became sick again after 5 yr remission I started taking opioids again, simple decision really. This person had inherent flaws that cannot be blamed on addiction or the drugs themselves. I’m sick to death of this cop out, people can think and make choices, drugs do not turn people into mindless robots,}
The problem with the addict is that once they become addicted there judgement is impaired and some of them will do ANYTHING to get their drug. They lie, steal, and murder. If you look at the number of people killed in auto accidents, you will clearly see that alcohol often plays a role. If the government is so concerned about people, then why don’t they stop the sale of most problem causing drug of all — alcohol? Why? They know very well that the people will abide by any such law. Look at the number of people in prisons. The US has the highest prison population in the world. Most of these people are there for drug offenses. So, I am like you in questioning whether all these restrictions on drugs is really helping the situation. The logical choice would seem to be yes. But, we don’t know. We don’t know what it would be like for all drugs to be available like Marijuana is in some states.
{Peon, STOP BEING BRAINWASHED by the anti-drug propaganda my friend and look at life in the real world. If everyone who did drugs went off the deep end this country would be in a state of anarchy. Its not the drugs, its the people that use them. Drugs, along w/ terror threats, etc are just the excuse at grabbing MORE power, more control, more money, and more influence by the govt over citizens PRIVATE lives. Wake up, get on the side of liberty and freedom my friend. ‘Just say no’ to more blaming, more regulations, more control, more profiling, etc.}
Contrary to what you may have thought, I have looked at both sides of the drug issue. I see police departments that are making money on druggies. Just think about all the money they get from confiscated vehicles. Look at how the police departments have grown in an effort to catch drug dealers. It has become big business. Some prisons are privately run and that has become a big business. Look at how the DEA has grown in their so called war on drugs. Every government agency has to justify is budget. So, all the agencies are trying to find problems to solve. For a long time the DEA concentrated mostly on the drug dealers, but now they are turning their attention to docs and pharmacies and they are actually scaring wholesalers into limiting certain drugs they stock and sell to pharmacies and it is creating a shortage. Like you, I don’t like big government and I don’t like its intrusion into our lives. But, we are going to see more of it and not less. In fact, I think our privacy and our freedoms are pretty much gone and it is already too late for the American people to try and get things changed. Too much power is concentrated into a few hands and those people will not let go of that power. Ever new law is framed as being something to ‘help’ a certain situation.
{Maybe as one ‘in power’ over other’s health care access you see things differently. I can understand that, it is your livelihood and in your personal interest to do so. To patients, and even addicts, some can be both as hard as that is to fathom, it’s their LIVES.}
From what I have just said, I think you will see that we think much more closely alike. Having ‘power’ over others health care access is not something I like. In fact, in almost all instances I let the doc make the decision about the patients meds. I don’t have the patients medical records and I don’t know what is wrong with the patient and therefore I don’t have the wisdom to deny the patient a med. But, I can readily see certain patterns by certain physicians and I can quickly tell you which one’s office is a ‘pill mill’. I don’t see any difference between a doctor that has a pill mill than a drug dealer on the street. The doctor that acts like a ‘drug dealer’ should be treated like a drug dealer and held responsible for his actions, have his liscense taken from him, and he be thrown in prision.
{The doctor did not rob the pharmacy, shoot the customer, shoot at the police, or make anyone do these things unless he has some ESP we are unaware of.}
As I have said, there are good docs and bad docs. The bad docs are responsible for maintaining an addicts addiction. The addict might be forced to get help if he cannot get his supply from the doc. The question of responsibility and the doc not being the one to shoot the customer and at police is not something that we can readily give a yes or no. At least the doc has a moral responsibility to do no harm. Maintaining an addicts addiction is immoral. It is no different than a liquor salesman that knows a guy is an alcoholic selling him booze. There may be no law against the sale of the alcohol, but don’t you think it is immoral? In the case of the doc, I think his responsibility is more than the liquor salesman. He has been highly educated. He knows or should know that giving addicts prescriptions for addicting drugs is not in the best interest of the addict nor the public at large.
I thought a court subpoena could over-ride HIPAA?
I thought a warrant could also override. Seems to me there was probable cause for a warrant for the doctors files
Coonhound, there is no difference between a street drug seller and a doc that writes prescriptions for addicts. HIPPA has been problematic from its very beginning and it goes too far in the protection of peoples rights. This is an example of where HIPPA is over-ridding other laws. It often places healthcare workers in a perilous position. You can be damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Coonhound, let me ask you what you would do if you were a pharmacist and you received a legitimate prescription for a patient? How does the pharmacist know the person is an addict? The situation is very different from the pill mill doc. The doc is suppose to examine the patient and know that the patient has severe physical problems before prescribing that person pain meds. If he doesn’t, then he is in violation of DEA regulations and he should lose his liscense. We pharmacists do not have the patients medical records!!!! We cannot just look at a person and know what is wrong with them and then determine if they should have the pain med or not. And, suppose we refuse to fill the patients prescription and they have a legitimate ailment, could they sue us?
Besides the pill mill doc being responsible for what the addicts did, there is one other party that is also responsible. You will never guess. It is the DEA. They liscense these docs to prescribe controlled substances. It is their job to monitor these docs and insure they are following the law. The victim or victims family should be able to file a lawsuit against the DEA and the DEA should be held responsible too. A problem we have in this country is that we have all these federal agencies, but they are not held accountable for doing their job.
Peon you wrote: “HIPPA has been problematic from its very beginning and it goes too far in the protection of peoples rights.”
I guess I tend not to favor intrusive, repressive government, excessive litigation, and our most recent proclivities towards fascism and corporatist government rather than democracy. I like civil rights and civil liberties and tend to favor personal responsibility, common sense, and recognizing the total inability to legislate morality upon free men. So NO, I don’t think one can ever go too far to protect ones rights. http://www.fascismusa.com/
Before going too far afield, I must state that while statistics can be manipulated and interpreted in many ways, many studies have been conducted comparing the rates of addiction throughout US history. Many well respected citizens agree that when comparing the country’s addiction rate pre Harrison Act, when citizens were allowed to purchase any medication, even cocaine and heroin, OTC they are comparable to today’s rates despite being described as of ‘epidemic’ proportions and even with all the billions spent to contain it with lawsuits, prisons, numerous state, local, and federal agencies, forced treatment, loss of liberties, corruption, etc, etc.
So to compare ‘pill mill’ docs and drug dealers to me is just splitting hairs.
I could care less when where why or what kind of drug an addict uses or who he gets it from. What you are seeing is not the negative aspects of addiction at play in this tragedy but rather the effects of prohibition and the laws against addiction and ever more recently against even legitimate drug USE. [as in pain meds]. These measures of control do 100 x the damage as the actual drugs themselves. IMO doctors and pharmacists should work with the patient allowing HIM to make informed decisions in the best interests of his health be it a chronic illness, addiction, terminal cancer, on down to a stubbed toe. [Have a person sign a waiver when purchasing his drugs and let it go at that] Maybe my views are colored by living w/ 2 incurable autoimmune diseases for almost 15 yrs. I may tend to err on the side of quality of life and personal decisions. If not given final say in my healthcare treatment, my doctors are sent packing as I am the one who must live with the final choice(s).Blaming doctors for a patients addiction is ridiculous and only brings about further hurdles for legitimate patients.
As far as addicts go? I could care less if someone ruins their liver by ‘eating’ 50 Vicodin a day for years or drinking a quart of rum per day for years to me its no difference, just one less moron taking up space. Not a big fan of the blame game that goes on in this country now. Accept responsibility for your own actions, no doctor forced this man to return time and again to pick up his scripts no matter how ‘legit’ they were or not. At any point in time he could have gone to a methadone clinic or just quit using altogether (believe it or not it CAN be done, I’ve done it ,cold turkey off morphine), Not fun but the thought of a two week flu cannot ‘force’ a man into a decision to murder someone to get his ‘fix’. Somehow I resisted this temptation or going downtown to ‘cop heroin’. When I didn’t need it anymore I quit, novel idea that it is. When I became sick again after 5 yr remission I started taking opioids again, simple decision really. This person had inherent flaws that cannot be blamed on addiction or the drugs themselves. I’m sick to death of this cop out, people can think and make choices, drugs do not turn people into mindless robots,
Peon, STOP BEING BRAINWASHED by the anti-drug propaganda my friend and look at life in the real world. If everyone who did drugs went off the deep end this country would be in a state of anarchy. Its not the drugs, its the people that use them. Drugs, along w/ terror threats, etc are just the excuse at grabbing MORE power, more control, more money, and more influence by the govt over citizens PRIVATE lives. Wake up, get on the side of liberty and freedom my friend. ‘Just say no’ to more blaming, more regulations, more control, more profiling, etc.
Maybe as one ‘in power’ over other’s health care access you see things differently. I can understand that, it is your livelihood and in your personal interest to do so. To patients, and even addicts, some can be both as hard as that is to fathom, it’s their LIVES.
This story reminds me of activity books for children. Remember the connect the dots pages? One connects the dots and they create a clear picture.
Try as I may, in this case there is no way that connecting these dots make any sense as far as responsibility goes. The doctor did not rob the pharmacy, shoot the customer, shoot at the police, or make anyone do these things unless he has some ESP we are unaware of.
CH
I know this comment is old, but you my friend, have just nailed it. Amen fellow patriot.
Peon, I never said I agreed w/ the statement made in the comments section about pharmacists. I DONT think they should be held accountable for the same reasons that you point out. I just shared it as an example of some people’s ignorance and the way the blame game keeps getting further out of control.
As far as your statement “We cannot just look at a person and know what is wrong with them and then determine if they should have the pain med or not.”
Some pharmacists must not agree w/ you as they are doing just that.
The DEA? where to begin…………another thread for sure………
The fact that this frivolous lawsuit ever saw the inside of a courtroom is extremely disturbing. What’s next? Do you go after the used car salesman who sold the drunk the car he drove over a pedestrian with? He has to have SOME responsibility no? I mean he HAD to know that the man was an alcoholic right? How about McDonalds when the 400lb man has a massive coronary @ 45?
I mean how could you serve a man 8 Big Macs a day, every day for over 5 yrs?
This country is going to the dogs, whatever happened to personal responsibility?Why is it that someone else is always to blame for everything bad that happens? Why does the govt and most citizens (sheep/tv babies) believe everything can be prevented by more laws and excessive litigation?
From the ‘comments’ section. This ought to be real comforting to all of you pharmacists:
“And the pharmacists that are nothing more than pill mills, for these doctors, should also be held accountable”
Ridiculous.